Argentina, a sad fulture story...

unkonven · Aug 2, 2014

simple mind;1851901485 said:

I just finish reading an article about the American Vulture Investor Paul Singer, this is about as bad as it can get, one Country at the mercy of one guy...

"Purchasing sovereign debts
See also: Vulture fund and Argentine debt restructuring

In 1996, Elliott bought defaulted Peruvian debt for a reported $11.4 million. In 1998, a U.S. court ruled that one could not buy debt with the sole purpose of suing the debtor. Elliott won a $58 million judgment when the ruling was overturned in 2000.[citation needed]

After Argentina defaulted on its debt in 2002, NML Capital Limited, a Cayman Islands-based offshore unit of Paul Singer's Elliott Management Corporation refused to accept its offer to pay less than 30 cents per dollar of debt. These are bonds with a face value of $630 million, for which NML reportedly bought for $48 million,[10] but that Elliott assessed were then worth $2.3 billion with accrued interest.[3][11]

In early October 2012, NML arranged for the seizure of an Argentinian naval vessel in Ghana, the ARA Libertad, in an effort to force Argentina to pay its debt. Argentina, however, refused to pay the debt, and shortly thereafter regained control of the ship and removed it from Ghanaian waters.[12]

In a November 2012 piece in the Huffington Post, Argentina's Foreign Affairs Minister, Hector Timerman, harshly criticized Singer for attempting to collect on the debt. Calling Singer “the inventor of vulture funds,” Timerman argued that the $127 million Singer had received from the Republic of Congo to settle a $400 million debt he had acquired for $10 million “should be going to build roads, schools and other poverty reduction programs.”[13]

According to the Financial Times, "Mr Singer chafes at the term 'vulture fund'".[14] Patricia Adams, the executive director of Probe International, wrote that "the pejorative is highly misleading," arguing that the funds are simply bondholders seeking to collect debts.[15]

In his investor letter for the fourth quarter of 2012, Singer described Argentina’s response to the court's ruling as “defiant and acrimonious,” saying that its dismissal of the ruling as “judicial colonialism” was “puzzling,” given that Argentina had chosen “to submit itself to the jurisdiction of New York courts and to waive its sovereign immunity.”[16]

In February 2013, the U.S. appeals court heard Argentina's appeal in the NML case.[17] In March 2013, Argentina offered a new plan that was judged unlikely to be acceptable to the New York court.[18] On August 23, 2013 the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit affirmed the lower court's verdict and dismissed said plan.[19] In June 2014, the U.S. Supreme Court rejected Argentina's appeal of the ruling.[20]"

Peace
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I wonder what this will mean for expats living in or moving to Argentina?

Jack Peterson · Aug 2, 2014

Not a wise move, methinks!

unkonven;1851901543 said:

I wonder what this will mean for expats living in or moving to Argentina?
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Who can tell at this time but I could almost guarantee, no Ex-pats from the US or the UK would be welcomed.

just my Opinion

tlrtraveler · Aug 2, 2014

A deadbeat is always a deadbeat---no excuses or justifications accepted. The South Americans have been running this scheme for decades now. Hope the Argentinians are forced to pay 100% plus interest and attorneys fees. The next time those sleazy bastards "go to the well", they may find it very dry!!!

PatO · Aug 2, 2014

jackpeterson;1851901545 said:

Who can tell at this time but I could almost guarantee, no Ex-pats from the US or the UK would be welcomed.

just my Opinion
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Lots of 'Germans' moved there following WW2.

simple mind · Aug 2, 2014

Dave & Imp;1851901537 said:

OK, let me see this through my eyes. Who are the real bad guys and who are the real good guys. As in all judgement cases it depends on your point of view as to who is bad or good. Who do you see as the bad guys and good guys? For me, it is difficult to figure out but obviously there are some winners:

A bond creator, Argentina, sells bonds for money and promises to pay the money back with a good rate of return, but then decides they will not pay the money back as promised. So they are making large amount of profit on bond sales. Is this bad or good for the way they live up to their financial obligations to their original investors/purchasers? They are the good guys for whoever used the money made from bond sales in hopes of not paying it back and anyone who believes in redistribution of wealth concept. Mostly like they are bad guys to their original investors/purchaser and whoever tries to sell bonds in the future and has very few buyers in line for this type of bond. The bond purchaser/investors, who are now working their asses off, and risking their investment just to make Argentina do as they promised to their bond holders are probably not happy either. This seems to be a redistribution of wealth program to bond creator who are keeping the bond purchasers/investor money from bond purchaser/investor but not in a popular direction in some parts of the world. Argentina is upset because they may have to pay in full, and some new investor took the risk so they were motivated to take them on in court. Lot of good and bad guys in this part it seems.
An original bond purchaser/investors who purchased bonds in hopes of making money on the promised interest and principal return gets scared (freaked out ) and sells the bonds at a discount trying to recover part of their investment. So they recover a small part of their investment. Are they the good guy or bad guy for trying to survive? Of course they made the new investor with bigger balls look like a bad vulture.
A New Investor, does some research and decides he can recover the full amount after years in court risking his investors’ money and attorney fees, and buys the bonds at discount thinking he will make some money for his investors. So he demands payment and wins a court case requiring the original bond creator to uphold their promise to pay. (It is a unique concept of full filling what you promise that seems to be is held up in court). He is the bad guy for the bond creator (and the people of Argentina who also do not want to pay the money as promised). He is called a “vulture” by the orginal bond creator for forcing them to do as they promised. He is a good guy to his investors who he promised a good rate of return and looks like he may prevail. This endeavor of course if also a redistribution of wealth back to the current purchases/investors who hold the bonds now. Of course the New Investor is a bad guy to some people of the world who do not believe in keeping promises, in this case Argentina’s promise to pay, while he keeps his promise to his own investors for a good rate of return.
Ok, so there are good and bad guys depending on your political bend and thinking. But who are the winners?

Of course if you have ever been involved in a court case you know who the winners are: the attorneys who win when they win, and win when they lose…. Because they make the rules, are mostly likely to become law makers and eventually judges too
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Good to see you back and in even spirit the way it looks, anybody eager to do a run down on the background of this Argentina deal...
I have the unease feeling that it's not all as it looks, this looks more like a case of stating an example, to open up the gap to break countries and get controll over them, like they now have in Europe...

Dave & Imp · Aug 3, 2014

simple mind;1851901564 said:

Good to see you back and in even spirit the way it looks,...
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Globe is starting to be nice to me, I can go on in the middle of the night sometimes. I got a 2 hours session in the middle of the day the other day, Globe must have thought it was my birthday.

I have tried to call them... four times... twice hung up on, once told to call back in 2 hours, once to call back in 5 hours... never even ran me through their test, unplug, stand on your head, try to understand their operators "English" exercises.

simple mind · Aug 3, 2014

Have you tried the "Globe Tattoo Pocket WIFI USB G4/G3 USB Hub", it works off of the cell network and has been my solution, it works most of the time and for

Gabrielle_K · Aug 4, 2014

What I heard on CNN the other day is (something like) that the 10% of the previous bond holders who did not just take pennies on the dollar "last time" want to be paid before any new bonds are offered or paid (can't remember which). And it's been ruled that if Argentina cannot pay the holders of the previous bonds then they cannot proceed at all.

I think the ruling was "Pay everyone or you can't pay anyone" causing default on the latest bond payments

That's the jist of it. I'm sure there's specific info online somewhere.

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Argentina, a sad fulture story...

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