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Discussion in 'COVID-19' started by danbandanna, Sep 16, 2021.

  1. Notmyrealname

    Notmyrealname DI Forum Luminary Highly Rated Poster Showcase Reviewer

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    That cannot be correct as we have not yet met "every virus [that] ever will be".

    And if the "tools" are insufficient to stop the host dying then they are definitely NOT "the required tools". The set of tools required by an immune system are to prevent infection of the host or to keep it at a low enough level to prevent the death of the host - this is what the host requires (also the virus).

    The passive immunity we possess is simply not enough when we meet new pathogens and many of these new ones have crossed species and so are unknown to our immune systems. Also, any new pathogen will subvert the body's first lines of defence as a result of natural selection (those which can get into the cell will be the fittest and those which cannot will not be replicated). So the next battle between the host and pathogen is one of bringing in second lines of defence when the first have failed (if they succeed then there is no reproduction of the pathogen and no need for response from the second line of defence - such as natural antibody production). Again, survival of the fittest means that those pathogens knocked out by naturally produced antibodies will not go on to infect others and those which evade the antibodies will be the ones to pass to other hosts (meaning the next hosts have a harder task of dealing with them).

    Also, there is an obvious connection between success in any battle of being forewarned and so forearmed - if the body had already met something akin to the pathogen then perhaps it can be ready to knock it out before is subverts the immune system in place. The best way to achieve this is to give the host a harmless equivalent of the pathogen - either by making it weak (attenuated), killing it (but retaining those features which elicit an immune response) or using parts of the pathogen (parts of the coat or cell wall, e.g. spike proteins; parts of the nucleic acid, e.g. mRNA). These will teach the host how to make the antibodies in a much faster way than relying solely on the body's own natural system.

    How long this acquired immunity lasts depends on how strong it was in the first place and whether or not the pathogen mutates regularly - influenza virus has antigenic drift and so the outer coat changes, the body's immune system fails to recognise it sufficiently and so it causes an infection which can harm or destroy the host. Covid is acting in a similar way - mutating so that the body is less able to tackle the new variants.

    I wrote the above from my own knowledge but will quote the following as it gives some figures (from https://www.livescience.com/why-lifelong-immunity.html)

    "A 2007 study published in the New England Journal of Medicine found that it would take more than 200 years for even half of your antibodies to disappear after a measles or a mumps infection. The same study found similar results for Epstein-Barr virus, which causes mono [mononucleosis]. Still, antibody responses don't always last a lifetime. That same study found that it takes around 50 years to lose half of our chickenpox antibodies, and 11 years to lose half of our tetanus antibodies. That means that without a booster shot, you could theoretically become infected with one of these diseases as an adult. "

    The evidence to date is overwhelming that Covid (a new virus without the history of mumps or measles to quote) is not sustaining a strong artificial immune response (some vaccinated individuals lose that immunity after just 3 months) and this is probably a mixture of a weak initial immunity and the tendency of Covid to mutate. In the same way that if a child or dog fails to understand an important instruction we know it is necessary to repeat it to reinforce it - the body seems to need to have the 'message' (the ability to produce effective antibodies against Covid) reinforced, but this will vary with individuals.

    The evidence exists worldwide that two doses of vaccine (one dose for certain vaccines) are not sustaining a sufficient antibody level for long enough and so either we allow the virus to continue circulating the human population (evolving more dangerous variants) or we vaccinate as often as required. As I wrote recently, the existing (natural) immunity of the body is very clearly not sufficient - or else we would not have had vast increases in Covid infections pre-vaccines.

    On this point, it is known that vaccination is reducing serious illness and death - that can be due only to the production of antibodies as the vaccines don't introduce antiviral chemicals or other antiviral products. The article https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8319587 states "In SARS-CoV-2 the initial rapid waning of antibodies is thought to be due to the loss of short-lived plasma cells, while the plateau in antibody levels occurs due to establishment of long-lived plasma cells. The underlying causes of waning were investigated in a recent paper by Kaneko et al., which found the absence of germinal centres in the thoracic lymph nodes of deceased SARS-CoV-2 patients. They proposed this lack of germinal centres was due to defective Bcl6+ follicular T-cells, which are unable to activate memory B-cells (MBCs). In turn this would impair the production of long-lasting and high-affinity antibodies, which could explain the rapid waning of antibodies in SARS-CoV-2. A similar mechanism for rapid waning of antibodies was proposed in SARS-CoV, where it was found that the virus depleted key lymphocytes involved in immune signalling and affected germinal centre responses. However, since both studies were done on deceased patients, these mechanisms only explain waning in the most severe cases."

    Therefore, if we allow antibody levels to wane then we are back to February 2020 (or near) and all the procedures having been introduced since then will have been wasted as the body count climbs again. This may be seen by some as a serious illness mostly of the elderly and ill but there is no reason why the virus cannot eventually evolve to be a serious threat to the young - even those who regard the elderly and the ill as dispensable will probably accept that economies will crumble if we start to lose the young, the fit, the workers. That is why this virus has to be defeated (defeat being that it may remain circulating but at a low level) and all the vaccines necessary to maintain a sufficient level of antibody have to be given - even it is every 6 months. Antiviral drugs and monoclonal antibodies may be a great help in the future to supress this virus but currently vaccination is the only means on a large scale - with the alternative of going out very rarely and then wearing a face mask (for the benefit of self and others) and a faceshield for the additional benefit of the self. This is fine if you are a person who has no major economic role but if people want to be out and about - and working - then what is the alternative to retaining some level of immunity through vaccination?
     
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  2. Notmyrealname

    Notmyrealname DI Forum Luminary Highly Rated Poster Showcase Reviewer

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    This does not need to be a "ridiculous debate" as it is really a personal choice. Apart from vaccination (and recent developments in antivirals and monoclonal antibodies) there is nothing else if the person is in contact with others than to think about face mask and face shield. Don't get vaccinated and die then it is wholly the fault of the individual; don't wear a mask and die then the fault of the individual; don't wear a face shield and die then the fault of the individual.

    That is an individual making a risk assessment (or not bothering to) and making a choice.
     
  3. Notmyrealname

    Notmyrealname DI Forum Luminary Highly Rated Poster Showcase Reviewer

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    The decision whether to be "holed up" is a personal one and has no relationship whatsoever to spirits - the person who cannot cope alone is the one who needs the "spirits". The person who is content alone is the only one who can be reliant on just one person, is never at odds in person with other people and is never talked about behind their back (unless they talk to themselves!).

    And, btw, I am not sure you actually understand the meaning of "jargon".
     
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  4. Rye83

    Rye83 with pastrami Admin Secured Account Highly Rated Poster SC Connoisseur Veteran Army

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    The adaptive immune system has the tools to identify any virus that has or will ever exist. There is a finite number of ways that proteins can be arranged. Our immune system has a library of every protein receptor that a virus could possibly use. It just has to find it and start reproducing it, which takes time and may not be enough to save the person. I wasn't trying to suggest that we can fight off every possibly infection with just our immune system, just that our immune system does have the "cure" for any combination of foreign protein arrangement.

    I was talking about the required tools to mount a response against any infection. Sometimes, especially in people with weaker immune systems, this response is not fast or strong enough to completely fight off the infection and save the person.

    This is the limitation of this study. Also, were these people who had been vaccinated or infected once, recovered, had antibody levels wane, got infected a second time and then died? (This would test if memory cells are being created doing their part.)

    Edit: just read the study you linked:
    In bold is the answer I'm waiting for.
    In their conclusion they state they are waiting for that exact question to be studied and answered as well.
    Their conclusion:
    So researchers don't even know if the boosters (and high antibody levels) are needed for protection just yet. Recommending or mandating boosters at this point, for people with healthy immune systems, is premature.
     
  5. SkipJack

    SkipJack DI Senior Member

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    I don't know.
    This is a "personal choice" that has community wide impacts. This impacts the people who have to care for the sick individual and the people who end up paying the cost of that care.
     
  6. Crystalhead

    Crystalhead ADMIN Admin ★ Forum Moderator ★ ★ Global Mod ★ ★ Moderator ★ ★★ Forum Sponsor ★★ ★ No Ads ★ Highly Rated Poster Showcase Reviewer Veteran Army

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    Just got my 2nd jab (booster) in Pamplona of the Pfizer vaccine. 2nd day experienced chills and nausea for a 6 hour period. Feel great now. Never wanted to get it in the 1st place but due to stats it only makes sense to do something rather than nothing!
     
  7. reich31e

    reich31e DI Member

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    Got my Booster (Moderna) for Seniors yesterday after my J&J 1 Dose End of July. Ace Hospital, all done after less then 2 hours. No Fever so far. Just a little pain in arm, shoulder and neck, which is normal.
     
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  8. NowandThen

    NowandThen DI Forum Adept Restricted Account

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    Well done. Moderna has good results for booster shots. In my case it was Pfizer. No probs and all done in less than 20 minutes. I had no side effects at all.

    Gesendet von meinem M2101K6G mit Tapatalk
     
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  9. OzeMike

    OzeMike DI Forum Adept

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    Well done. Did you receive a text from Dumaguete Health Dept to come in for your booster or was this done privately?
     
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  10. OzeMike

    OzeMike DI Forum Adept

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    The reason for asking is Dumaguete Health Dept told me Monday they are only doing boosters for health workers at this time and are waiting for the memo from the national DOH allowing them to start doing senior's boosters...and we will receive a text to come in for it.
     
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