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As an expat for several years, I've been a member of several local forums, the majority of which are populated by 'Hooch's'. In the 1990's there was a popular alco-pop drink in the UK called 'Hooch' and the strap line was 'bitter & twisted'. I gave a colleague the Hooch nickname in my office because it suited him well! So - thankfully it is somewhat refreshing to note that I've yet to encounter any Hooch's here (yet).

I congratulate DI for a well moderated forum. I appreciate that not everyone shares the same views, opinions or outlook on life; if they did life would be very mundane indeed.

As a new resident of DC (well, Amlan to be precise) DI is an invaluable resource and I'm grateful for its existence. I am especially comforted by the willingness of members to help me out, share knowledge and provide a warm welcome.

There are 'Hooch's' everywhere. Thankfully they seem few and far here. I know you 'ain't gonna please everyone all of the time - but for me, I remain thankful that new friends and helpful advice is only a few clicks away. Keep up the good work...

 

Jellyfish was a long time Dumaguete member with hundreds of contributions. He had many friends who I am sure miss him. He had many talents and was just a great guy. He attended my son's baptism party with many other forum members shortly before he was unfortunately killed in a hit-and-run motorcycle accident on south highway in November 2011.
May he rest in peace.

 

What aggression - it takes far less effort to say nothing than to hurt someone.

 

Might be age related with Sinovac as as a more mature member at 74 I had fatigue and a few headaches on day 2 after my second Sinovac... feel fine now. Think another third shot of Sinovac (or better still a higher quality vaccine) within 3 months might finally really kick those antibodies into business!

 

That cannot be correct as we have not yet met "every virus [that] ever will be".

And if the "tools" are insufficient to stop the host dying then they are definitely NOT "the required tools". The set of tools required by an immune system are to prevent infection of the host or to keep it at a low enough level to prevent the death of the host - this is what the host requires (also the virus).

The passive immunity we possess is simply not enough when we meet new pathogens and many of these new ones have crossed species and so are unknown to our immune systems. Also, any new pathogen will subvert the body's first lines of defence as a result of natural selection (those which can get into the cell will be the fittest and those which cannot will not be replicated). So the next battle between the host and pathogen is one of bringing in second lines of defence when the first have failed (if they succeed then there is no reproduction of the pathogen and no need for response from the second line of defence - such as natural antibody production). Again, survival of the fittest means that those pathogens knocked out by naturally produced antibodies will not go on to infect others and those which evade the antibodies will be the ones to pass to other hosts (meaning the next hosts have a harder task of dealing with them).

Also, there is an obvious connection between success in any battle of being forewarned and so forearmed - if the body had already met something akin to the pathogen then perhaps it can be ready to knock it out before is subverts the immune system in place. The best way to achieve this is to give the host a harmless equivalent of the pathogen - either by making it weak (attenuated), killing it (but retaining those features which elicit an immune response) or using parts of the pathogen (parts of the coat or cell wall, e.g. spike proteins; parts of the nucleic acid, e.g. mRNA). These will teach the host how to make the antibodies in a much faster way than relying solely on the body's own natural system.

How long this acquired immunity lasts depends on how strong it was in the first place and whether or not the pathogen mutates regularly - influenza virus has antigenic drift and so the outer coat changes, the body's immune system fails to recognise it sufficiently and so it causes an infection which can harm or destroy the host. Covid is acting in a similar way - mutating so that the body is less able to tackle the new variants.

I wrote the above from my own knowledge but will quote the following as it gives some figures (from https://www.livescience.com/why-lifelong-immunity.html)

"A 2007 study published in the New England Journal of Medicine found that it would take more than 200 years for even half of your antibodies to disappear after a measles or a mumps infection. The same study found similar results for Epstein-Barr virus, which causes mono [mononucleosis]. Still, antibody responses don't always last a lifetime. That same study found that it takes around 50 years to lose half of our chickenpox antibodies, and 11 years to lose half of our tetanus antibodies. That means that without a booster shot, you could theoretically become infected with one of these diseases as an adult. "

The evidence to date is overwhelming that Covid (a new virus without the history of mumps or measles to quote) is not sustaining a strong artificial immune response (some vaccinated individuals lose that immunity after just 3 months) and this is probably a mixture of a weak initial immunity and the tendency of Covid to mutate. In the same way that if a child or dog fails to understand an important instruction we know it is necessary to repeat it to reinforce it - the body seems to need to have the 'message' (the ability to produce effective antibodies against Covid) reinforced, but this will vary with individuals.

The evidence exists worldwide that two doses of vaccine (one dose for certain vaccines) are not sustaining a sufficient antibody level for long enough and so either we allow the virus to continue circulating the human population (evolving more dangerous variants) or we vaccinate as often as required. As I wrote recently, the existing (natural) immunity of the body is very clearly not sufficient - or else we would not have had vast increases in Covid infections pre-vaccines.

On this point, it is known that vaccination is reducing serious illness and death - that can be due only to the production of antibodies as the vaccines don't introduce antiviral chemicals or other antiviral products. The article https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8319587 states "In SARS-CoV-2 the initial rapid waning of antibodies is thought to be due to the loss of short-lived plasma cells, while the plateau in antibody levels occurs due to establishment of long-lived plasma cells. The underlying causes of waning were investigated in a recent paper by Kaneko et al., which found the absence of germinal centres in the thoracic lymph nodes of deceased SARS-CoV-2 patients. They proposed this lack of germinal centres was due to defective Bcl6+ follicular T-cells, which are unable to activate memory B-cells (MBCs). In turn this would impair the production of long-lasting and high-affinity antibodies, which could explain the rapid waning of antibodies in SARS-CoV-2. A similar mechanism for rapid waning of antibodies was proposed in SARS-CoV, where it was found that the virus depleted key lymphocytes involved in immune signalling and affected germinal centre responses. However, since both studies were done on deceased patients, these mechanisms only explain waning in the most severe cases."

Therefore, if we allow antibody levels to wane then we are back to February 2020 (or near) and all the procedures having been introduced since then will have been wasted as the body count climbs again. This may be seen by some as a serious illness mostly of the elderly and ill but there is no reason why the virus cannot eventually evolve to be a serious threat to the young - even those who regard the elderly and the ill as dispensable will probably accept that economies will crumble if we start to lose the young, the fit, the workers. That is why this virus has to be defeated (defeat being that it may remain circulating but at a low level) and all the vaccines necessary to maintain a sufficient level of antibody have to be given - even it is every 6 months. Antiviral drugs and monoclonal antibodies may be a great help in the future to supress this virus but currently vaccination is the only means on a large scale - with the alternative of going out very rarely and then wearing a face mask (for the benefit of self and others) and a faceshield for the additional benefit of the self. This is fine if you are a person who has no major economic role but if people want to be out and about - and working - then what is the alternative to retaining some level of immunity through vaccination?

 

Good morning shabbynomad70 , I'm not 77 , I'm actually 68. 50 or so years ago, when I started training as a commis chef ( I'm still learning ) , after work my fellow trainees and I would visit a local hostelry for a beer or two. It was The Crown, the address escapes me at the moment. On the bar was a sign which I never forgot..
"This HOUSE is dedicated towards those splendid FELLOWS who make DRINKING a pleasure, who reach CONTENTMENT before CAPACITY and who, whatever the DRINK, can take it, hold it and STILL be GENTLEMEN ".

Pub etiquette was very different back then, most pubs, not all, were pleasant, respectable and respectful . Respectful whereby swearing in front of a man's wife, or indeed any woman, was a mistake. sometimes a dangerous mistake. Unfortunately this is all lost in the mists of time and these days the conversations I hear are loaded with expletives.
We are a humble establishment but not so humble that I don't check for families or folks that are looking uncomfortable in these circumstances. If so I would quietly tell ( not ask ), the aforementioned characters to show respect and possibly find some self respect , or leave.
Just recently an English 'gentleman' has decided to frequent Zak's Place, he's cheap, demanding, and noisily foul mouthed. I'm aching to find a solid reason to rid the place of him. I hope he reads this as he will know.
My mindset hasn't changed from 50 years ago.