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Best Posts in Thread: should i use a damme for land and 50 year lease?

  1. furriner

    furriner DI Forum Adept Restricted Account

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    And it’s not only the Philippines. Offhand I don’t know any country in this region where expats tend to settle that allows foreign land ownership. Not Thailand I understand; not Vietnam or China. Western countries like mine should reciprocate. Countries that do not permit citizens from country land ownership (should be a fundamental right) should not be permitted to buy land in my country. Is that “racist”? My most humble apologies to any USA democrats who may think so hehe.


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  2. furriner

    furriner DI Forum Adept Restricted Account

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    I looked up the term “damne” and suspect you may mean “dame” because damme is an archaic expression not referring to a person. Anyway, assuming you meant a Filipina woman, who is a citizen allowed to own land here, I would not do as you say; you are basically gifting her and potentially her heirs more than 23k USD that she gives you permission to use which can be revoked on a whim. This is true not only in the Phils but in many countries is Asia. If you were to marry the woman you would have a much better claim as “beneficial owner” of marital property where you could own it if she passes and her heirs wouldn’t have a claim. Of course, you should verify your particular situation with an attorney. Assuming marriage is not in the picture, you might wish to look at a long term lease using a knowledgeable attorney. You hear stories of foreigners getting married and the spouse legally or informally separating and selling the property with the foreigner losing everything. These stories may actually be true because the only way the foreigner can own land here is through legal inheritance by death of a spouse. If she (or the dame) is alive, you do not own anything. I wouldn’t do as you propose.


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  3. AndyG

    AndyG DI Member Admin ★ Forum Moderator ★ ★ Global Mod ★ ★ Moderator ★ Showcase Reviewer Blood Donor

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    If people are repeatedly bringing up the risk of extreme action against you then there may be some cause for concern but by stating this conflict is now fun which you are happy to engage in for an extended period of time ("no hurry to sell land") is a form of belittlement that is not tolerated at all well in the Philippine society. It can be precisely this that can tip an adversary from threats to drastic action because shaming is pretty much the worst thing you can do to a Filipino, especially if it's made in a public forum like this. It's my fervent advice you learn to understand this concept absolutely because if someone makes that leap against you, recovery, if it's possible at all, will take a great deal of humility and appeasement.

    I have some compact (20 pages) yet compelling reading on the subject if you're interested.

    I sincerely hope you see my message, based only on what you've said, as an effort to assist your navigation of living here. I don't know the whole story but I am concerned you could be heading down a treacherous path. It's up to you what you do with the information.
     
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  4. IggyPop

    IggyPop DI Member Showcase Reviewer

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    You should be very careful about making out to be having fun with this. He may not be able to afford an attorney to fight a case against a foreigner but he can most certainly afford a hitman from the mountains.
     
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  5. Rye83

    Rye83 with pastrami Admin Secured Account Highly Rated Poster SC Connoisseur Veteran Army

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    "I've known for 4 years" "basically trust".
    Seeing as you are American the words here are not getting lost in translation. There are red flags everywhere just from the language you have used.

    How have you "known" this woman? Dating? Online? Friend?

    "Basically" trust? 1.6 million is not something you sign over to someone you "basically" trust. It should be COMPLETELY trust. You shouldn't have to tell anyone, it should be implied.

    "If"? This sentence tells me you actually question if she will be.

    Since you are using, or trying to use, the word "dame" I'm going to assume you are quite old. How old is she?

    Oh no. You're "that guy".

    It seems you have already slipped the noose around your neck. I suppose, if you believe in such a thing, you should be asking a higher power for assistance. Nothing we can do to help you hear.

    Wait...I do recall a case where a foreigner successfully sued a Filipina for estafa (swindling) who did something very similar to him. She is still on the run with the money last I heard but there is a small, albeit infinitesimally small, chance that you could have the courts rule in your favor if she was being dishonest about the relationship to enrich herself.
    Estafa:
    http://www.chanrobles.com/revisedpenalcodeofthephilippinesbook2.htm#.XPVU0rcVSh8
    (Scroll way down to Article 315)

    Estafa case (possibly ongoing?):
    https://philippineslifestyle.com/filipina-fraud-swedish-boyfriend-single/
    And more lessons to be learned from this case:
    https://www.philstar.com/the-freema...woman-charged-estafa-denies-claim-against-her
    This is not the case I was referencing earlier. I am almost certain the Foreigner won the estafa case in that instance, and it took place in Manila (Batangas was also somehow involved). Maybe someone else will show some interest and have better luck finding it.

    First thing I would do with this girl is get with the national statistics office and find out if she is married already.

    Do NOT do this. It will not stand up in court. Foreigners cannot own land and forming a corporation to do so is an attempt to circumvent the law. The courts will rule against you just as they have against others in the past. "No law has been more settled in the high courts than foreign land ownership" - paraphrasing the Supreme Court there

    And "3 locals that don't know each other". As if that is some way to stop them from getting together to scheme against you. Any idiot lawyer (or individual without a law degree) can find out the owners of any corporation, it is public information. All one of them has to do is think "gee, I'd like to know more about this corporation I am part owner of, I wonder if I can make some money from it" then a lawyer gets involved, sees you are circumventing the law and then....you're screwed. All it takes is for one brief fleeting moment of critical thinking from any of the local owners to completely screw you over.
     
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  6. SkipJack

    SkipJack DI Senior Member

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    I don't know.
    A foreigner cannot purchase land in the Philippines. On the other hand there are ways for a foreigner to exert control of land.

    The leasing of the property for 25 + 25 years is a more realistic scenario. Here the foreigner would lease the property from a Philippine citizen. An irrevocable SPA could be drafted to cover the interests of the lessee (tenant) where they have the ability to represent the owner on issues relating to the use of the land during the lease. For example, the lessee (tenant) would be able to bring a case evicting a squatter. This should work as long as any action aligns with the interests of the owner and the lease.

    The lease would protect the foreigner (lessee/tenant) from the Filipino owner. The SPA would protect the foreigner (lessee/tenant) from everyone else. (Squatters, etc.)

    The foreigner would NOT have the right to sell the property they did not own and keep the proceeds. (This would be a crime against the owner.)

    Below is a reference as the the irrevocability of a SPA:
    An agency, however, cannot be revoked in any of the following instances: 1) if a bilateral contract depends upon it;

    The lease would be the bilateral contract that would depend on the SPA.

    In the below reference, the SPA would not be irrevocable because the friend was not the lessee (tenant). The lease contract did not depend on the SPA.
    https://www.manilatimes.net/instances-power-attorney-cant-revoked/137683/

    In this way the foreigner could live out their life (50 years) on the property. (Assuming they do not get shot.) Then the Filipina owner gets to have it. Or the children if you put it in their names.

    Things get a bit more complicated if they are living together and the relationship becomes troubled. Who throws who out? During the time they were living together they were both tenants on the property. So who should the court favor? The foreigner lessee/tenant over the Filipina owner/tenant? The lease should be written to address this. Many relationships may not survive this discussion.

    ***********
    There are other more complicated options:

    Not all corporations in the Philippines have to be majority owned by Philippine citizens. Only corporations that own land or engage in specific portions of the economy have to be majority owned (60%) by Philippine citizens.

    In considering these other options please realize they all involve a Philippine citizen owning the property or at least 60% of the corporation or trust that owns the property. There are opportunities to adjust who exerts control.

    Below is a link to an opinion from the Philippines Securities and Exchange Commission regarding the ownership of a corporation. This opinion relates to the ownership requirements of an airline corporation in the Philippines. An airline is a public utility and therefore under the constitution falls under similar ownership requirements as land.

    In this case, the corporation is 40% owned by foreigners. (30% “foreigner father”, 10% “foreigner friend”). But 51% of the corporation is controlled by foreigners because as legal guardian of his Filipina daughter the “foreigner father” is able to exert control over her shares too.

    These legal concepts can be extended through the use of irrevocable trusts.

    In my opinion, this scenario is way too complicated for a residence. If you feel the need to protect your assets, for a residence, consider placing ownership in the name of the children and create a lease between you and the children. This may also skip estate taxes. On the other hand your financial situation may be such that you can take the hit. In this case just let her have it.

    Here is the link: (@Rye83 will like this one. It is a real mind twister.)
    https://www.sec.gov.ph/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Opinion-No.-12-13.pdf

    **********
    Often the administrative and management issues are moot compared to facts “on the ground”.

    @IggyPop pointed out the fact that hit men were less costly than attorneys. This would surely make the legal administration moot.

    @furriner failed to follow the unwritten “one island away from family” rule. Not only was the property not one island away it sounds like it was in the same Barangay as the disgruntled family member. The disgruntled family member was close enough to notice that banana trees had been cut down. Being in the same Barangay causes additional issues as there may be relationships with the family members and the Barangay leadership:
    "Worse, the Barangay captain did not know how to deal with the court order and such and scheduled a formal lupong hearing. At that point we were on the hook for trespass, possibly criminal trespass and destruction of property, he wasn’t sure!"

    *******
    So, @yogavnture already purchased the land for 1.6 million pesos and is considering to “put her family to live on the land at my cost”.

    This is not something I would do. There are two challenges. First being how the extended family influences your spouse during the time that you are living there. The extend family influences add a lot of challenges to the relationship (understated).
    Second, what happens if the relationship sours? Are you going to live there amongst a clan that is unhappy with you? What happens when you show up with your new girlfriend to live in "your" home?
     
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  7. Pompolino

    Pompolino DI Member Showcase Reviewer

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    As it appears you have already bought the property, to start your recovery from this situation, you should contact a lawyer (recommended in this forum - certainly not recommended by the family) and seek to get your 1.6m registered as a loan against the property. I am highlighting that you should do that - not your girlfriend. If she bucks at agreeing to making this a registered loan - you will certainly have your answer for the future relationship and for any future expenditure.

    As has been repeated many times here, we foreigners can not own property (other than condominiums) in the Philippines but certainly, having already provided the funds you can seek to partially recover from the situation and then in the longer term seek a more controllable future.

    Best of luck.
     
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  8. HeyJoey

    HeyJoey DI Member

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    no sir,
    don't do it like that,
    2 months a year and you are willing to loose 1.6m ? (always remember every investment i a loosed one to start...)
    either way you are rich or don't care about money, 1.6m is small for us but for your 2 months-love-a-year is very big,
    don't sign any papers on her name, check many lawyers, make a corporation with 1 of your close friend and 3 locals that don't know each other. this is the safest way and if your 2 month a year love react violently to my last suggestion you have your answer :wink:.
     
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  9. OzeMike

    OzeMike DI Forum Adept

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    This may have been pointed out in a later post but just be mindful under the Family Code spouses cannot lease to one another. I leased the house and land 25 + 25 from my live in filipina back in 2003 but when we eventually married the lease became null and void.
     
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  10. Notmyrealname

    Notmyrealname DI Forum Luminary Highly Rated Poster Showcase Reviewer

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    And would you believe that people send their entire life savings, sometimes hundreds of thousands of USD, to a person who told them online they would receive back millions? ANYTHING is possible.
     
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