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Marriage Visa Change in Notarization Requirements for Legal Capacity to Contract Marriage

Discussion in 'Passports and Visas' started by SkipJack, Apr 6, 2021.

  1. Volti62904

    Volti62904 DI Junior Member

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    The Mark of Cain was just a sign God gave Cain to prevent other people from killing Cain because he had killed his brother.

    I find that especially interesting because, WHAT OTHER PEOPLE?! Supposedly there were only the people in the entire world; Adam, Eve, and Cain. This verse along with Gen 6:2 imply others were on Earth (There's a book removed from the canon called the Book of Enoch which explains a lot).

    In any case, I doubt I can get an Apostille. The Sec'y of State office in Nevada is basically closed due to the Pandemic (like they ever did anything during the normal times other than collect money).

    But in the court case I'm listing as a precedent, no Apostille or any other form of Authentication was needed besides the certification stamp.

    I hate Spell check. It's like that little drawer in the bottom of the fridge called "the crisper". One comedian called it "the Rotter" because that's what happens to any veggies put in there (wrapping crispy vegetables in wax paper helps).

    Spell check should be called "inserting random non-sequitur words into your post to make you look stupid!". FB also does this deliberately if you use the mobile browser instead of their app

    It took me a long time to figure out the information on websites regarding Apostilles. For example on the DFA website, it's worded in a way that implies they can Apostillize my Foreign decree. They cannot. Only the country that issues a document can Apostillize it.

    Fortunately the definition I included about the Hague Convention specifically said that at the end.

    This also helps proves my original point about the unnecessary services the Philippine Embassy provides (at excessively higher rates - like $400 for a FREE VISA!).

    There's no way DFA could even HAVE the authority to authenticate any foreign documents.

    They are also not supposed be dealing with foreigners either unless they are helping a Foreign spouse of a Philippine citizen.

    That's similar to what the US Embassy offers.

    Still, no list of documents needing an Apostille includes Divorces. It might fall under the category of court decrees, but even in list that specifies which decrees DIVORCE is still not listed.

    I suspect that it's because most people get a Certified copy to begin with and that should be sufficient since the Certification stamp is from the Court itself and with the original filing and the certification of the copy it's basically Double certified.

    We'll soon see.

    Anyway. Enough off topic stuff. I'll keep everyone posted once I learn more.

    First step will be getting the Affidavit notarized, then head to PSA for both CENOMARS and her birth certificate. Then comes the fun part.

    I'm debating whether or not I should ask PSA about anything at all especially about updating the CENOMAR.

    I'm sure they will simply try to perpetuate the myth that I need to file a case with RTC before they can update it, or tell me they do not list Divorces on a CENOMAR. Of course they do. But maybe they don't on a foreigner's CENOMAR.

    I still find it totally crazy that no one here knows anything about the laws (and most attorneys will lie to you to get you to file unnecessary cases).

    Someone was just commenting the other day how the Constitution didn't say that marriage had to be between a man and a woman because the purpose of marriage was procreation.

    If course it doesn't. That's what the Family Code is for, AND IT DOES SAY THAT... In a lot of ways the methods here are better than back home.
  2. Volti62904

    Volti62904 DI Junior Member

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    Here comes a new chapter in the saga .

    So, I received two replies. One from Nevada SOS, and one from DFA. The Nevada Sec'y of State was very helpful. The one from DFA, not so much.

    As usual DFA tried to tell me that they couldn't issue an Apostille but the Embassy could. Then they said I needed to go to the court to determine the validity of my divorce. That person is not going to like my reply.

    In my reply I first said "I'm sure you are aware that the grounds of the Philippine Embassy in any country are technically within the Philippines even though the property it sits on is physically within the foreign country itself. Therefore the Philippine Embassy apostillizing a US document is the exact same thing as the DFA issuing the Apostille, which, both you, and the rules of the Hague Apostille Convention say cannot be done."

    As for court comment, I replied, "As for your suggestion to contact the courts here, they cannot help either as the RTC has already made it clear foreigners have no legal standing in their court. As such foreigners cannot file cases and cannot get legal information from them."

    Then I said "However the validity of my divorce is not in question according to Article 26¶2 of Executive Order 209, the Family Code of the Philippines ("Where a marriage between a Filipino citizen and a foreigner is validly celebrated and a divorce is thereafter validly obtained abroad by the alien spouse capacitating him or her to remarry, the Filipino spouse shall have capacity to remarry under Philippine law."), and other cases including Van Dorn vs. Romillo, G.R. No. L-68470, October 8, 1985."

    I then said, "I'm more concerned with registrars offices still telling me that Red Ribboning is required even though the Philippines is a member of the Hague Apostille Convention and the terms of the Convention have been in force here for over 2 years. I've noticed that quite a few agencies here still operate under old laws and procedures that have long since been updated."

    I added, "Have other agencies been officially informed of the proper procedures and authorities of the Hague Apostille Convention, such as PSA and the offices that issue marriage licenses?"

    Then I brought up the PSA MEMORANDUM, "Along the same lines, PSA recently issued a Memorandum which took effect 01 April 2021 called "PSA MEMORANDUM CIRCULAR NO. 2021-04, Ref No. 21CRS02-02-0210 SUBJECT: Local or Philippine Notarization of Affidavits in lieu of Certificates of Legal Capacity to Contract Marriage, written by DENNIS S. MAPA, Ph.D. Undersecretary, National Statistician and Civil Registrar General, and Dated 26 March 2021" which no longer requires the Affidavit in Lieu of Legal Capacity to Contract Marriage to be notarized by or even issued by the US Embassy or US Consulate.

    "This Memorandum was issued due to the problems of traveling around the country during the pandemic to visit the Embassy or Consulate and as part of the ARTA, Anti Red Tape Authority.

    "In the opinion of the PSA, a global pandemic should not dictate whether or not a couple can get married, therefore they removed the biggest obstacle which was nothing more than a technicality.

    "As the Memorandum states, 'Also, the Philippine government has generally accepted affidavits which attest that the foreign citizens are legally capable of entering into marriage since they are sufficient compliance with the requirement provided by the above-mentioned provision of the Family Code' (Article 21)

    "The Memorandum goes on to say that only a Certificate of Legal Capacity to Contract Marriage itself needs to be issued by an Embassy or Consulate. However, as you know the US has no national document repository comparable to the PSA, so US citizens need to present the 'Affidavit in Lieu of'.

    "Regarding the AFTA, the Memorandum states 'Furthermore, the Anti-Red Tape Authority (ARTA) emphasizes the necessity of streamlining and simplifying the procedural and documentary requirements for government transactions under the new normal.'"

    I ended with, "Based on past experiences, however, I'm sure most offices that issue marriage licenses will not be aware of that new authority either.

    "But if I have problems getting remarried, I'll simply hire a competent attorney to assist me.

    "Thank you for your assistance"

    I'm now waiting for one of two types of replies. 1) they will be polite and either not bring up my comments or politely try to convince me I'm an idiot and THEIR policies supercede the law, or 2) they will get angry and tell me that they are going to notify every marriage license agency in the country to not issue a license to Mr. Volti because they run everything .

    If I get the latter, I might mess with them a bit. After all, it's not like they REALLY know who I am. Then, when I DO get married I'll write them again and ask them for their congratulations

    The whole conversation with them reminds me of a military joke. The general was in the mood for something so he wandered over to the vending machine area of the Commissary. He saw something he liked but didn't have change.

    He saw a private walking by and asked, "Hey soldier, do you have change for a dollar?" The private was startled and reached into his pocket while saying, "Sure, I think I have it right here."

    The general suddenly remembered protocol and said, "Just a minute private. That's no way to speak to a superior officer. You either say ’yes, Sir!' or 'no, sir' and salute! Now let's try this again!"

    "Soldier, do you have change for a dollar?"

    The soldier said, "NO SIR!', saluted crisply and marched out the door very quickly!

    Kinda the same as the Bulgarian proverb: "It's okay to walk alongside the devil until AFTER you've crossed the bridge!"

    Anyway, now I'll get to test my shipping company on returning a letter home and mailing it. The SOS needs an ORIGINAL SIGNATURE. Everyone else has accepted my emailed signature. At least this way I can send two of the Certified copies instead of needing to order 2 more.

    I'll keep you posted on the process; ESPECIALLY ANY REPLIES FROM DFA
  3. Notmyrealname

    Notmyrealname DI Forum Luminary Highly Rated Poster Showcase Reviewer

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    I doubt they will be able to cope with your reply! Perhaps 3 words would be their limit. But good on you for pointing out the legal position as you see it - but convincing Filipinos? I've seen too many examples of where they are right on everything and aliens must obey.
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  4. Volti62904

    Volti62904 DI Junior Member

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    I'm sure the person was quite shaken that Kano knew more the law than a Filipino. I'd be willing to wager that person hasn't even read the Family Code OR the rules of the Hague Apostille Convention!

    Anyway, I remembered something else this afternoon. The BI supervisor I spoke to in 2018 also explained that the Embassy personnel do not get paid Kano wages because the country couldn't afford to have Embassies if they did that. She said they basically have a commissary, and places to stay in the Embassy so they can afford to live on the normal wages back home.

    However a lot of them still want to get out and see the US (as well as act like the rich relatives by buying expensive presents for those back home). So the expensive (and basically illegal) services the Embassy charges for give these people money to buy stuff, at our expense.

    Here's something else that's funny. I spoke to the supervisor in either late July or early Aug 2018.

    I'm not sure if I mentioned this, but the main thing the supervisor and I spoke about were the different requirements the Embassy had for the 13A compared to the BI.

    I even showed her the printout of the Embassy website, and she was shocked. She then asked if she could have a copy of the printout. Since I had already saved it on my phone, I gave her my copy. She wanted to show her supervisor what DFA/ PH Embassy was doing because DFA has no AUTHORITY over Immigration matters. They are only supposed to deal with FILIPINOS.

    Minor sidetrack; from the time a country first signs to become a member of the convention until the time the laws take effect is around 8 months. It gives other countries the right to contest, and gives the applying country time to change the applicable laws.

    The Philippines signed the documents on September 12, 2018; about 6 or 7 weeks after I saw the BI Supervisor. The laws went into effect in May of 2019.

    I have a feeling her supervisor was very angry and first checked the Embassy website to verify the printout. Then he went directly to the President with the printout to show him what the Embassy was doing and the President IMMEDIATELY got the Philippines signed up with the Convention! He had to speak to them directly because the web says the head of the DFA brought in all the necessary requirements; something they wouldn't have done on their own (and lose all that extra money) [Not sure what I pressed to indent this]​

    Considering that the Embassy was doing all this Red Ribboning stuff which they had no AUTHORITY to do, as well as stepping on the BI's toes, and overcharging for BI services, I'm sure the Presidency considered their actions to be that if one of the fixers the current administration is trying to get rid of. So it was either that printout that prompted the Philippines becoming a member of the Convention, or it was just a remarkable coincidence. I don't care which it was, but I love the irony.

    I've had similar things happen all my life. The best one was in the 70s. I was debating what I would do if I got called in the draft because I didn't want to go to Vietnam, but I didn't want to go to Canada either.

    Well the war suddenly ended. But selective service drew one last set of names for the draft just in case, but they never called the names.

    Fifteen or so years later, some group posted that list. Yeah, I was on that list. Someone upstairs is definitely watching over me.

    Now HE'S turning the election campaigning into a three-ring circus. It's actually getting fun to watch

    Anyway, now I can have a legitimate Apostille instead of a fake Red Ribboning because paperwork was finished just in time. Maybe the PSA can use it to update a CENOMAR since no court case can be filed.

    Of course it still needs to be seen if anyone else even knows what an Apostille is. Obviously DFA isn't gonna issue anything official because they are apparently the agency trying to force people to go to the court when the laws of the land say it isn't necessary for either the foreigner or the Filipino! And their website makes it seem like they can Apostille any document local or Foreign. Hmm, maybe I can use that last bit to my benefit... No one's gonna refuse to honor a document from DFA either even if it's only a copy of their webpage.

    A better idea would be using a different email address and asking them about getting a Social Security benefits sheet Apostillized, and if I had to show it to anyone over here before going to BI. If they answer that question correctly, that email could be printed and used. They even implied on their website that they could Apostille such a document... Wow, they are so confused they don't know whether they are coming or going.

    But it's an interesting idea!

    ... And The Saga Continues ...
  5. Volti62904

    Volti62904 DI Junior Member

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    Okay so I have the full information on getting the Apostille from Nevada clarified.

    My biggest concern was them needing an original signature not a copy. Normally I'd PDF the documents and email them, and have someone print them up and mail them. I was told someone in Las Vegas could sign the order form. However, since I'm sending a signed payment checklist, that signature might need to be original too. I'll check the form to make sure.

    From there it's a tossup. I can have the company that ships my US purchases to me here ship the document back to the US to mail. This would allow me to enclose the certified decrees I already have eliminating the need to order more certified copies.

    Or I can email the PDFs and have someone there sign the order, and have them wait for new certified copies to arrive then mail everything.

    Even though shipping from here is a little more expensive, I would prefer not needing to deal with the court for more certified decrees . Their services take too long, and they seem to not understand why I would need additional copies.

    I won't pay for expedite processing either. Don't want to shell out the additional $75 expedite fee. I figure I'll get 3 copies Apostillized instead. One for PSA, in case they can update the CENOMAR with it; one for the marriage license bureau, and one additional copy just in case another agency needs it.

    I'll work on the documents later.
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