Best Posts in Thread: IATF "Face Shields Mandatory"

I hate people showing superiority ... BUT I have to point out (so ME being guilty now) that I started reading books on viruses at age 11, studied virology at university for 3 years, worked in one of the world's top virus research labs (even signed the Official Secrets' Act) and have continued reading the subject ever since. So, although I might be out of date on some very new issues (which I then tend to check) my basic knowledge is very high. Most of my posts are written from memory and if I write everything I know in detail (which I already do far too much!) the Forum will be filled and have to close down! But, a few facts (from memory):

1. Viruses can 'survive' on their own for far longer than a few hours. Otherwise why would people be wary of surface transmission for this and other viruses. Outside a host cell, a virus is 'not living' - it is just mostly protein, lipid and nucleic acid. It only becomes active within a host cell - because its MO is to take over the host cells' nucleic acid and make new virus particles. It is never 'living' (if we think of the main 7 characteristics of living things), even when inside a host cell.

2. All viruses do NOT destroy the host cell. Some 'bud off' the new virus and survive.

3. In order to exist they do NOT need to infect other people. Firstly, they can exist inert in a jar and become active when then placed inside a host cell BUT also viruses can also remain latent within the body (as with Herpes simplex, the cold sore virus) and become active only at certain times - perhaps many years later. Same for shingles. To replicate then they do, of course, as far as we know, need a host cell. But it can be the same host. To spread (dispersal being an important part of survival for any species) then infecting new hosts is essential.

4. There are single dose vaccines being produced but it is unlikely they will create an immune response to immediately inactivate the virus - thus still giving time for survival of the fittest (most resistant) and the chance for those variants to replicate or to mutate further.

5. I am fully aware the vaccine itself is not inactivating the virus directly but inducing an immune response (I wrote in response to Rye83 "Vaccination creates immunity to some part(s) of the virus - via the production of antibodies and T-cells. It teaches/primes the immune system so that when the real virus makes a visit, the immune system can hopefully overwhelm it") but the vaccine is the thing that is responsible for inducing the immunity which then inactivates the virus (and trying not to fill the page, I went with the simpler view).

6. I stated that the fact a second dose was required tends to indicate the one dose is not effective enough - you replied that it is, in fact, to better train the immune system. Snap! You agree that one dose will not be able to deal with all the virus which may be in or may later enter the vaccinated person (as who is to say that every vaccinated person is actually 100% virus free at the time of vaccination? So unlikely).

7. You wrote "It appears you think that the virus particles are already in the body when the vaccine is administered and that it then inactivates some of the particles. This is not the situation." No I don't - I think they would have never awarded my degree if I was that unaware of a very basic principle of vaccination. But, as I stated above, are you saying no-one being vaccinated already has virus within them? So, I am well aware that the vaccine helps the body to create immunity against a possibly current and likely future event.

8. You wrote "Compared to the number of the corona virus particles on earth, mutations are an extremely rare occurrence." That may be true (same as I am told each UK citizen only pays £1 or something a week to maintain a pointless Royal Family - but multiply that by 66 million and what do you get!). How many significant mutations does it take to turn a serious virus into a more serious one? Answer is ONE. It does not matter if there are 1000 billion viruses and only one mutates - if that is a significant mutation AND gets transmitted to another person (and so on) then the result can be disastrous. In fact, the original appearance of Covid19 must have been due to a mutation within another host which allowed it to jump to humans and be further transmitted. Further point: The greater the number of viruses then the greater the chance of serious mutations.

9. Your logic about how vaccines might end the pandemic is sound, of course - we know that from smallpox, polio, measles, rubella, etc., etc., etc. But this is an RNA virus (better at mutating) and has shown to be a great spreader - but not YET a great killer.

I stick by my speculation that the vaccine might just select out existing mutations which might make the vaccines less effective which might mean having to manufacture altered vaccines (taking months) which might mean the virus keeps running out of our grasp which might mean poor countries cannot get it fully under control.

But I hope very much there is a happier outcome - I am just realistic about downsides as well as upsides.

 

Yes reducing the number of virus particles reduces the number of mutations.

The virus particles cannot survive on their own for a long period of time. (a few hours) They must reside in a host cell and replicate. But they destroy the host cell when they replicate so in order to exist they must continue a chain of infection to people who have not been infected yet.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02670844.2020.1833277

There are single dose vaccines being released.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55857530

The vaccine does not inactivate the virus particles. It trains the immune system to be prepared in advance of when it meets the corona virus particle.

To improve the training of the immune system. Like people, the immune system learns better when the lesson is repeated.

There may be a misunderstanding. It appears you think that the virus particles are already in the body when the vaccine is administered and that it then inactivates some of the particles. This is not the situation.

The vaccine is administered before the body accumulates any virus particles. The vaccine trains the immune system that the virus particles are bad and should be destroyed if any are introduced into the body in the future.

When virus particles are later introduced (breathed in) to the body the immune system identifies them as bad and destroys them.

This stops the chain of infection and greatly reduces the number of corona virus particles on earth.

Compared to the number of the corona virus particles on earth, mutations are an extremely rare occurrence.

1) Reducing the number of infected people will reduce the number of corona virus particles replicating in infected people.

2) Reducing the number of corona virus particle replications in infected people will reduce the number of virus particles on earth.

3) Reducing the number of corona virus particles on earth will reduce the probability and rate of mutation.

Therefore a vaccine will greatly reduce the number of mutations.

 

Mutations can also occur due to chemicals or nuclear energy changing just one very small part (even one base) and can be rare or can be quite frequent. The viruses causing Covid-19 are now known to be very good at mutating - which is why the disease has become such a problem. But in the case of mutations due to errors in replication, you only stop the replications if you stop (inactivate) ALL the virus particles BEFORE any can replicate and that simply does not happen in vaccination. You will reduce the viral load significantly but not eliminate it 100% rapidly. You will be aware that for Covid-19 two doses are being given -that is because dose one is inactivating less than 100% of the virions (virus particles) and therefore further replication of virions within the body's cells must be able to take place (if not, then why a second dose?). Which virions are more likely to be left in the body after dose 1 or be able to infect a person after dose 1 - those easily destroyed by it or those more resistant?

 

Yes - neutralising the virus by antibodies produced as a result of vaccination will reduce the number of virus particles WHICH ARE SUSCEPTIBLE TO THE VACCINE! Any virus NOT susceptible will then be free to replicate - that is how (and why) viruses mutate. Then you have a variant which is NOT susceptible to the vaccine.

 

Except that vaccination might just create new variants - because of survival of the fittest.

 

Face shields and double-masking are being advised as provisional response to more contagious varieties of the virus, as identified from the U.K. and South Africa. Apparently, (single-)mask plus (N95) face shield has been near 100% effective in hospital settings. In the long run, only effective vaccination will control the virus and prevent new variants.

 

The news today includes an article about how the virus mutates.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/me...e-in-covid-19s-sickest/ar-BB1deRS4?li=BBnb7Kz

The vaccine will create herd immunity thereby preventing people from becoming sick in the first place. This will greatly reduce the number of mutations.

This reinforces the importance of face shields and lockdowns in reducing the spread of this disease.

 

Vaccination creates immunity to some part(s) of the virus - via the production of antibodies and T-cells. It teaches/primes the immune system so that when the real virus makes a visit, the immune system can hopefully overwhelm it. It stops viruses replicating in the same way that shooting a bullet into people's heads usually stops them reproducing! If you don't exist then you can't reproduce/replicate.

BUT, the immunity can usually work only against the viruses it recognises as the same or similar to the vaccine (whether whole or part of a virus) - if a variant arrives that is significantly different to the created immunity then that immunity is less effective (and may be totally ineffective).

The concept of vaccines helping to foster variants is well known and happens with polio, for example.

 

Yes. The vaccine programs the immune system to kill (dismember) the virus. Once dead the virus can no longer infect cells and replicate.

Mutations are a result of replication. They occur very rarely after many replications. No more replication no more mutations.

 

The theory is, Vaccinate and stop the replication, this stops the rate of mutation.