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Dive Sled

Discussion in '☋ Diving and Marine Life ☋' started by Philippinediver, Jul 30, 2007.

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  1. jellyfish

    jellyfish DI Forum Patron

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    I was not planning to react anymore, but after reading Joel's reaction I laughed because he did mention some very pratical points.
    The most important point maybe is his remark about the insurance on which you did not comment, PhDiver.
    If you dive alone....no point..it's you yourself who will has to bear the consequences of a non-covered insurance i.c.o. a dive accident. Be aware: whatever the real cause of that dive accident might be, the insurance co. will very likely not pay you the cost for treatments.
    But if you have taken newcomers with you (as you do), I'm pretty sure you will be held responsible in case a dive accident also affects that newcomer. I believe you are cautious with what you're doing but as you will know for sure, even at 50 feet a long dive can cause a serious dive accident when unexpected things do happen.
    Reading Joel's comments I also realize how personal some arguments can be. For instance: I'm always filming here U.W., have a dive suit of 0 mm (yes, I never use any other 'suit' than a T-shirt in tropical waters) and stay very often 90 minutes under water. I often get allowance from the dive organisation to stay longer than the standard max. time of 60 minutes. These dives start mostly at depthes of around 100 feet and finish at 10 feet (non-deco dives). Special dives go much deeper and are of course deco-dives. I know that divers look very surprised when they see me after the dive coming into the boat without shivering, they sitting their with a 5mm suit.
    Sure, also my body cools down, but I have in general more problems with higher than lower temps. Shivering (when serious) is a sign to end my dive.
    Also the consumption of camera batteries (in my case a video camera) is quite case dependend (personal).
    At the end of a dive I have mostly not used more than 30 % of the battery capacity. I'm filming quite selective. 15 minutes of recording is about the max. during 1 dive (of maybe 90 minutes). Sometimes only 5 minutes recorded !
    All I want to say: many items will differ from person to person, but some will not. These have to be taken very serious. You can never predict someones behaviour under certain circumstances. What e.g. if a newcomer suddenly makes an emergency ascend from 50 feet. Are we 100% sure that we in all cases can prevent him from doing so and are we sure he will apply what we told him before his first dive: to exhale !!!! I won't say YES to this question. Problems have even arised in a swimming pool with students !!
    I'm a CMAS instuctor for 25 years. Luckily I suffered no serious dive accidents with my students, neither with me or my buddies although some of my dives COULD have ended badly (if some factors had been different).
    My advise: take care and especially don't promote this Dive-Sled activity with non-divers to prevent liability or stay within a really harmless depth. There are enough examples to be given of people brought to court and declared guilty because they were found responsible for an accident. These examples we got during our instructor training and we still get them if new ones occur.
     
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  2. joel

    joel DI New Member

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    I didn't wrote this, because it's me who would like to sue you. I just tried to point out some special needs I have - beside the safety concerns I've got.

    Thanks to Jellyfish, who pointed out some arguments much better, especially about emergency ascends. All those emergency procedures are an option (incl. buddy breathing), but being realistic, I don't think newcomers are able to handle them save and reliable.

    Even more experienced divers sometimes aren't - sure they can show buddy breathing in a "check dive", sitting in the sand at 10 feet. But at 50+ feet with nothing beneath them?

    All I'm saying: take care. Try to see it from others point of view, not from yours, who might have thousand of dives...
    Just ask your customers / companions when they last anticipate a no-air-situation or better when they practice buddy breathing or emergency ascends. Guess most of them will get big eyes, asking "what in hell he's talking about?" :wink:
    Everybody knows about, most fear it and pray it never happen to them but the minority really practices it again after they got a diving license.

    Also wonder what happen (to the device) when a newcomer gets into problems (where he should do an emergency ascend) with some dozen feet of hose around / above him? If he will not get entangled in, I'm sure he'll grab like hell on it - 'cause I guess if one is in a real air-out-situation, it's quite hard to stay cool and not grabbing anything which is around you. At least for beginners.
    In this case I won't be on another hose of this device.
     
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    Philippinediver

    Philippinediver DI Member

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    Dive Sled

    Nicely done Jellyfish. But what if, what if, what if, what if is a question that can never be answered. Listen we can debate this until we are blue in the face. You are all completely right in principal but in reality it doesn't mean poo. I would soon enough take down a novice then some of the scuba instructors I have seen. I think it only comes down to our individual competency and experience. I have a 100% safety record with my dive sled and as a Divemaster since 1991 I consider myself very experienced and competent.

    However, Joel it is apparent by your answers that you probably are Advanced Open Water at best. Next time I see you how about I rip your mask off and yank out your regulator at 60 feet and see how you respond. No doubt you will bolt to the surface. Botom line you will never know until you are facing it

    So perhaps instead of the Dive Sled we should be talking about the real issue that faces diving and that being OW diver competency as well of the competency of the instructors many depend on.

    Only up until recently (with the 6 month OW Certification 60 dive pre-requisite) Pay Another Dollar In....Oh I mean P.A.D.I. allowed a person that had no diving experience to take a factory course and in about 8 weeks go from no certification to instructor and ready for immediate placement in the field. Only now after four decades of not requiring any experience does PADI require 6 months of OW certification before doing the IDC. Bravo, better late than never.

    I have seen more brain dead instructors that came out of a PADI factory IDC school in 8 weeks never having scuba dived before all the way to instructor. Even with the new 6 month OW requirement many of the new instructors coming out can be outright scary.

    Just look at the Diamond Program offered by Pro Dive® to start you on the road to becoming a professional Instructor or Divemaster. We designed this program specifically for the individual who wishes to pursue a career in the recreational scuba industry but has not yet entered their initial Open Water certification course.

    The Diamond Program is conducted over a six week time period and includes the following courses:

    PADI Open Water Diver
    PADI Advanced Open Water Diver
    PADI EMERGENCY RESPONDER
    DAN Oxygen Provider & PADI Oxygen First Aid
    PADI Rescue Diver
    PADI Divemaster (PADI's First Professional Membership Level)
    PADI Master Scuba Diver (PADI's Highest Recreational Credential)
    PADI Enriched Air (Nitrox) Diver
    PADI Underwater Navigator
    PADI Peak Performance Bouyancy
    PADI Night Diver
    PADI Deep Diver
    PADI Drift Diver
    During the Diamond Program it is possible for you to log over 60 dives
     
  4. jellyfish

    jellyfish DI Forum Patron

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    Phdiver, it's not the intention (at least not mine) to accuse anybody here. I regret the way the 'discussion' is going on now. Please take comments from members serious and answer on questions so anybody can draw his own conclusions. It's not anymore about the Dive Sled now but about competency of instructors, about the dive-competency of a reacting member, about dive factories and what more.
    You had my interest with the device (I was curious) but I lost interest since I don't read added value anymore. I wish you honestly good luck and hope you will keep in mind the various comments you got via your topic on this forum.
     
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    Philippinediver

    Philippinediver DI Member

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    Dive Sled

    I agree 100% percent with you Jellyfish. In any event I truly appreciate the comments and opinions in this discussion. Perhaps if you see me out in the water someday using the sled you will come over and see what it is all about. Thanks again
     
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    Philippinediver

    Philippinediver DI Member

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    New Dive Sled

    I just had a new Dive Sled built by Nigel ( a local Builder of Catamarans and 20'+ open fishing/cruising/diving boats as well). Anyway this one is a prototype. I will be giving it a first try this weekend in between El Dorado and Pur Vida sometime this weekend. If anyone is intreested in trying it out with me, I will have multiple tanks and 2 sets of 100' lengths of hose. What do you have to lose (except your life he he he Just kidding) If you are interested just give me an email and number to reach you so we set up a time convenient. Could be an adventure of a lifetime and might open up some eyes.
    View attachment 1551 View attachment 1552
     

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  7. Rhoody

    Rhoody DI Forum Luminary

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    Hi PD,
    I am missing the coolbox for SMB and my waterpfroof Marlboro Light set...joke na lang... I life at that beach antway. Just PM me when you gonna be there. I loft to give it a try and discuss directly... (sure we will publish our discussion-result here)

    cheers
    Rhoody
     
  8. Diver

    Diver DI Forum Adept

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    Can I have a try when I am in Dauin in November ?

    Greetings J.Diver
     
  9. joel

    joel DI New Member

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    Yapp, be my hero.

    Is it? Apperently I mean? I may missed something while my dive career - do I get you right: only stupid beginners shows or talking about their safety concerns?
    You are wrong. I'm a Put Another Dollar In DM. And I stopped my career at this point, because until here I met a lot of real bad role models and OWSI.

    Your are pretty sure about everything, right? Guess you are one of those divers which was born with wings at the back. Everybody is a shitty diver, except them.

    You should have listen more carefully to what I wrote before: I need 2 kgs lead - this would be pretty unusual for a beginner, even for a slim girl, right?
    And what's the problem with losing the mask? We all have another one in our BCD and we know where the octo is located, no? quite and carm. And than, if its save and reachable, I might go down to bottom, for picking up the mask.

    Right.

    I told you:
     
  10. OP
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    Philippinediver

    Philippinediver DI Member

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    Dive Sled

    Joel

    and anyone else that may have opinions about the viability, safety, practicality of the Dive Sled are welcome to come see for yourself. I plan on being in the area right between El Dorado and Pura Vida sometime in the late morning say about 10:30am.

    I am not making any excuses but I will be trying this Dive Sled design for the first time. I have no idea of how it will perform. I am assuming that like previous models I had built, this one will require some modification to be perfect. My initial impression is that when being towed by a diver there will probably be a down angle of prhaps 70% that may pull the nose down (on this model) and impede performance of the sled gliding effortlessly on the surface. I hope I am wrong but, I just don't know with this one. I will be bringing a 100 foot hose as well as a 50' hose.

    I do hope you have a chance to come try it and leave all opinions until afterward.

    See you there
     
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