⌛ Do you have medicare?

I am not happy with the health care bill in it's current form either. I don't think it goes far enough.

To address some of your points:

The VA and Medicair have no comparison to what they are planning.
Does this mean that you think the VA system and medicare are good? I happen to agree. The VA is similar to the UK socialized Medical system. Government employed docs in clinics or hospitals no choice. Medicare is similar to the Canadian system. Single payer choose your own doc.

Healthcare is already "rationed" and will be further rationed if and when Obamacare ever happens. It is already rationed by the insurance industry purely for profit. They are the real bad guys in all this.

What they are proposing is not a fix, buy a giant step backward in healthcare! If it was simple, straightforward, and cost effective why does it need 2,000 pages of legislation? I don't know for sure but I have heard the figure 17% of the nations economy goes to health care. This being the case does 2000 pages seem too much. I know it would tax the intellectual capacity of many in congress but that is why they have staff, to provide them cribb notes. Do you think a plan to change 17% of the economy should be written on the back o0f an envelope?

With a 1.3 TRILLION $$ cost and WAY higher taxes it will destroy the way of life in the U.S. as we know it. Will you be able to live on 30-40% of your earnings after taxes? Most Americans won't!
The tax rate in socialized Europe averages around 70% with some approaching 90%!! Please tell me the source for these figures. I suspect someone has been feeding you misinformation.

Have you donated to a hospital lately? How about the line on your federal taxes where it asks if you would like to "donate"? Would you rather voluntarily "donate" or be forced to "donate" to a woefully inefficient and wasteful federal government? I don't have enough income to pay tax. And come to think of it wouldn't that donation be handled by a woefully inefficient and wasteful federal government.

It never ceases to amaze me when people "care" about the healthcare of others yet are unwilling to voluntarily donate their $$ to help them and would rather be forced to give $$ to the government!! The whole idea of having a government is that some things can best be done by governments. It is sort of like building roads. If we depended on everyone to voluntarily pave the road in front of their house some would do it gladly and many would not. There are many things too important to society as a whole to allow for purely voluntary compliance.

 

You bring up some good points also. The medicaire system may be good in your opinion, and that is great, but are YOU willing to pay more for less coverage and less quality than what you get now? The Obama plan would get rid of the medicaire system and would force people to use the new government version, thus the governments "implied" savings, which is a very uneducated guess .How can you insure a vastly greater number of people with supposedly greater coverage for less $$? That is the fallacy behind the whole thing!

Interesting....."I don't have enough income to pay tax", yet you want the rest of the U.S. population to pick up your tab, and the HUGE tab for socialized medicine? No wonder you are for it, you have nothing to lose except quality of care! By the way, pensions and social security income is taxable in the U.S., but that is a different story.

You nailed it when you agreed that the U.S. government is woefully inefficient and wasteful!! ("I don't have enough income to pay tax. And come to think of it wouldn't that donation be handled by a woefully inefficient and wasteful federal government.")

"The whole idea of having a government is that some things can best be done by governments. "

True, like national defense, but since when is it a governments job to fund, ration, manage, and decide on ones healthcare?? Do you really trust the government to decide what's best for you??

Healthcare is already "rationed" and will be further rationed if and when Obamacare ever happens. "It is already rationed by the insurance industry purely for profit. They are the real bad guys in all this."


It depends on how you look at it. The efficiencies and improvements in U.S. healthcare are driven by "profit". No profit = no incentive! Since when did a company making a profit become bad? I would rather see a private company make a "profit" than see the U.S. government waste more money than the private sector ever had as profit! What incentive will the U.S. government have to provide quality care and control waste??? It will be the opposite! The goal is greater government, greater control, and more $$ in the U.S. treasury. Do you really think the politicians give a rip about healthcare? Why are they excluding themselves from coverage that would be mandated for the rest of the population??!!

With a 1.3 TRILLION $$ cost and WAY higher taxes it will destroy the way of life in the U.S. as we know it. Will you be able to live on 30-40% of your earnings after taxes? Most Americans won't!

The tax rate in socialized Europe averages around 70% with some approaching 90%!! "Please tell me the source for these figures. I suspect someone has been feeding you misinformation."

1.3 trillion is the latest government price tag as quoted by the feds.

The tax rates in Europe >>> Tax rates of Europe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia This is only one source, there are many others that say the same thing.

I have friends in Spain and Belgium also. Belgium's income tax rate is 52% + 21% VAT per a friend. The taxes don't include hidden "fees" that are actually taxes. 70% is average! If you include all the hidden fees and taxes it is even higher! Socialism costs dearly! Why do you suppose that consumer goods are so expensive throughout Europe compared to the U.S.?

What they are proposing is not a fix, buy a giant step backward in healthcare! If it was simple, straightforward, and cost effective why does it need 2,000 pages of legislation? "I don't know for sure but I have heard the figure 17% of the nations economy goes to health care. This being the case does 2000 pages seem too much. I know it would tax the intellectual capacity of many in congress but that is why they have staff, to provide them cribb notes. Do you think a plan to change 17% of the economy should be written on the back o0f an envelope?"

Comparing 2,000 pages and the back of an envelope is a little extreme. What a person should be concerned about is:

1) 2,000 pages and NONE of the people who are voting on it have read it!
2) Do you really think an "aide" is going to read the whole thing and give an accurate accounting? Did you know that a good percentage of "aides" are not full time and are low or no paid interns?
3) What pork, and who knows what, is written into it?
4) Why is Obama and the Democratic party in such a rush to cram it down the throat of the American people?
5) Why did they exclude themselves from coverage?

Are you really willing to sell your kids, grand kids, and the entire U.S. populace down the river so you can have "free healthcare"??

 

Since when did a company making a profit become bad? When it replaces doing something because it is the right thing to do or because you love doing it rather than have to do it for the money for your corporate slave driver.

I have friends in Spain and Belgium also. Belgium's income tax rate is 52% + 21% VAT per a friend. The taxes don't include hidden "fees" that are actually taxes. 70% is average! If you include all the hidden fees and taxes it is even higher! Socialism costs dearly! Why do you suppose that consumer goods are so expensive throughout Europe compared to the U.S.? All of that may be true but I don't see droves of Europeans, Britons, Canadians or Aussies immigrating to the states because they want it the way we have it.

Do you really trust the government to decide what's best for you?? When it is to equalize the playing field and just make a base line of benefits available to all who qualify, yes.

Are you really willing to sell your kids, grand kids, and the entire U.S. populace down the river so you can have "free healthcare"?? I see this statement as extremely selfish. I don't consider providing services to those who do not have them as selling anyone down the river. And I dont believe for a minute that it would be free, I am more than willing to pay more taxes to make it happen. I just dont understand why the more selfish people out there think they are in the right just because they can currently pay for something but when their day comes to stand in line for something they end up screaming the loudest about how unfair life is to them.

 

I am not very interested in this topic since it is a purely USA item.
Being from Europe, I also wonder what's the source for the tax figures of 70% till 90 % ?
We pay a lot in the Netherlands (and have a lot of social benefits too ) but .......70 till 90 % ..... I NEAVER have heard of.
May be there is a small country like Liechtenstein that has that :D (which I surely don't believe).
Your friend who told you that about Belgium and Spain is very well informed I guess :D
Ask him again to come with the real facts.
Btw.... you can't simply add the tax-part taken from salary for social security (that's a PART of the 52%) to the taxes we pay on cunsumer goods like cars and other luxury items.
On some (the real luxury ones) the taxes are high an others low(er).
Please don't misinform the readers of this interesting thread

 

Since others more eloquent than me have answered many of your statements I will just address your personal attack on me.

When I said I didn't make enough to pay taxes, I should have said my taxable incomewasn't enough to pay taxes. My adjusted gross income is in the negative using nothing trickier than turbo tax. I know and do file my tax return every year.

As far as my free medical care and being a burden on honest tax payers like yourself, the VA placed enough value on my service to care for me over the years. We each pay our dues in different ways. Today I receive Social Security and Medicare because I paid into the system for many years like everyone else. The only unfunded part of Medicare is the part D prescription benefit, courtesy of George Bush, and I drop over $200 a month in Mercury Drugs and don't add to your tax burden.

All I can say is those Europeans must be making honking big salaries if they can feed, cloth, keep a roof over their heads, buy cars and educate their kids on the 10% left after taxes.

The next time you watch Hannity or Glen Beck ask yourself is this man making sense.

 

I was thinking this afternoon and a couple other things have stuck in my craw from your earlier posts. A couple lines I found particularly offensive:

Have you donated to a hospital lately? How about the line on your federal taxes where it asks if you would like to "donate"? Would you rather voluntarily "donate" or be forced to "donate" to a woefully inefficient and wasteful federal government?

It never ceases to amaze me when people "care" about the healthcare of others yet are unwilling to voluntarily donate their $$ to help them and would rather be forced to give $$ to the government!!

I thought back to 1995 when I was living in NY and trying to get back on my feet financially after having tried to do business in the Philippines. Rather than sit at home and mull my fate I volunteered a couple days a week in the Physical Therapy ward of the Kingbridge VA hospital. I don't imagine you have much knowledge of Bronx geography but Kingsbridge isn't the silk stocking district. Many of our patients had been living in subway tunnels or under bridges and hadn't had ready access to a bath in a while. Some of these guys had lost limbs, not due to combat wounds, but to uncontrolled diabetes and infection. Until they got directed to the VA they had no access to an form of health care. From the moment they walked in the door they were treated with absolute respect. It was yes sir and no sir and how are you sergeant so and so. Restoring a bit of dignity to these guys was as important as the health care we provided. Funny I never thought of it as charity just giving back. Maybe that's why it took me a while to take offense. As I said in an earlier post we all pay our dues. Some check off a box on a tax form others throw a buck in the church collection plate, some give more.

 

How does one remove or "DELETE" this thread?

 

Jerry, as the starter of this thread you are the one able to do that imo.